Do Airline Passengers Have Rights?

[SarahS]

After spending eight hours stuck on the tarmac on an American Airlines flight in December, a passenger named Kate Hanni decided she'd had enough -- and has proposed a new bill of rights for airline passengers. You can learn more about the incident and see the full bill of rights in this story by Traveler's Ed: The Airline Passenger's Bill of Rights.

The bill of rights has gone all the way to Congress, backed by Hanni's representative, Mike Thompson. What do you think -- if the bill passes, will it make a difference in how airlines treat their passengers? Tell us your thoughts and vote in our poll!

[travelmel]

I voted for "maybe" -- I think this certainly will (and should) get some attention in the industry but come on, do you really think the airlines are going to, say, compensate delays of 12 hours of more with a 150 percent refund? They charged a stranded passenger $4 for a snack box, which probably was stale anyway!

[soliteyah]

I had to go the cynical route and vote "no way." I'm with you, travelmel -- there's no way they're going to agree to compensate people fairly when they're charging old ladies $4 for a snack box that probably consists of a pack of crackers and a cookie.

If anything, the airlines are just getting cheaper and cheaper; the food options are dwindling, forget getting free headphones, and Spirit is now going to charge you to check more than one bag. Meanwhile, I think I read somewhere that the airlines lose more than 10,000 pieces of luggage every single day! Who runs a business like this??

These schmucks aren't going to start introducing fair practices anytime soon.

[RichardNika]

Yes, of course we do. We also have responsibilities: making sure that we are ticketed, showing up within the time limit, cooperating with security and with airline safety regulations and so on. Nevertheless, the fact remains that we are paying customers, and, while the customer is not always right, employees of this or any other industry have a duty to treat customers fairly and courteously, with due regard for their welfare and safety.

Having said that, I will add this: to incarcerate unwilling passengers on a hot, stinking,food-less, drink-less, bathroom-facility-less non-moving aircraft for hour after hour when the terminal is only a few hundred feet away is INHUMAN!! No one can tell me that there was no way to get the people out of that plane! Whatever happened to mobile stairways? ladders? Emergency chutes? Calling the fire department? Has anyone ever heard of the term "false imprisonment"?

For JetBlue to offer a free roundtrip ticket to the 11-hour prisoners is farcical. It's an insult. I've gotten that plus a cash bonus simply for offering to take a flight an hour later than one that was overbooked! A fair compensation would be a one year unlimited pass, a four figure cash bonus and an increase in the bonus in lieu of the pass.

I'm lucky. VERY lucky. I've never had to spend more than 20 minutes or so in a plane on the ground. But if I'd been on that NWA plane in Detroit, or that AA plane in Austin, or any of those jetBlue flights, I'd have already hired a lawyer.

I'm used to seeing defensive posts from airline employees about unruly passengers. I have never been an unruly passenger. I am naturally courteous to service people, nomatter what their jobs are. Most airline employees I have encountered have been courteous to me as well. But many have not. Last year, one airline supervisor at a major hub airport first refused to talk to me when I asked for information about my delayed flight - all the gate stations in that area were unstaffed - and then threatened to have me arrested when he overheard me complaining about it to other passengers. (I wish he had - what a lawsuit that would have been!) When I asked for his name, he also - as I discovered later - gave me a fake name.

I sent a torrent of complaints to the airline, by e mail, by phone, by snail mail. I got nowhere. Finally, I happened to catch an interview on a newscast with the executive of that airline in charge of operations at that airport. I got that person's home address through an internet site, sent a snail mail letter, and now, almost a year later, the matter is finally being investigated. I'm omitting details only out of consideration for that executive, who phoned me immediately and was super-courteous and concerned.

Meanwhile, here are a few ways of making air travel less painful.

(1) If the plane isn't full, try to get not only next to an empty seat but, even more important BEHIND an empty seat! Some people just won't give up trying to mash their seat backs into you, even if it means crushing your knees in the process.

(2) If you MUST check your bag, do this. Take a strip of thick paper or poster board - the stuff they make manila folders out of works for me. Cut a wide strip of it. On that strip, print, preferably with a fresh Sharpie or similar, print, in large characters, your name, home address and phone, destination address and phone, e mail, and the words "This luggage is supposed to be traveling on..." and then list each flight for that part of the trip, using the exact airline names and flight numbers (both, if it's a code-share), the departure and arrival times, and the 3 letter codes for each airport (easily available on line or from the airline).

Cover the whole thing with string transparent packaging tape, put it through the bag's handle and then tape the ends together firmly with more packaging tape.

Make a similar flat info sheet for inside the bag. When you reach your destination, take them off, destroy them, and make new ones for the next flight(s)

(3) When you call an airline and some semi-comprehensible Indian answers, say you need to speak to a supervisor in the United States!

[RichardNika]

Yes, of course we do. We also have responsibilities: making sure that we are ticketed, showing up within the time limit, cooperating with security and with airline safety regulations and so on. Nevertheless, the fact remains that we are paying customers, and, while the customer is not always right, employees of this or any other industry have a duty to treat customers fairly and courteously, with due regard for their welfare and safety.

Having said that, I will add this: to incarcerate unwilling passengers on a hot, stinking,food-less, drink-less, bathroom-facility-less non-moving aircraft for hour after hour when the terminal is only a few hundred feet away is INHUMAN!! No one can tell me that there was no way to get the people out of that plane! Whatever happened to mobile stairways? ladders? Emergency chutes? Calling the fire department? Has anyone ever heard of the term "false imprisonment"?

For JetBlue to offer a free roundtrip ticket to the 11-hour prisoners is farcical. It's an insult. I've gotten that plus a cash bonus simply for offering to take a flight an hour later than one that was overbooked! A fair compensation would be a one year unlimited pass, a four figure cash bonus and an increase in the bonus in lieu of the pass.

I'm lucky. VERY lucky. I've never had to spend more than 20 minutes or so in a plane on the ground. But if I'd been on that NWA plane in Detroit, or that AA plane in Austin, or any of those jetBlue flights, I'd have already hired a lawyer.

I'm used to seeing defensive posts from airline employees about unruly passengers. I have never been an unruly passenger. I am naturally courteous to service people, nomatter what their jobs are. Most airline employees I have encountered have been courteous to me as well. But many have not. Last year, one airline supervisor at a major hub airport first refused to talk to me when I asked for information about my delayed flight - all the gate stations in that area were unstaffed - and then threatened to have me arrested when he overheard me complaining about it to other passengers. (I wish he had - what a lawsuit that would have been!) When I asked for his name, he also - as I discovered later - gave me a fake name.

I sent a torrent of complaints to the airline, by e mail, by phone, by snail mail. I got nowhere. Finally, I happened to catch an interview on a newscast with the executive of that airline in charge of operations at that airport. I got that person's home address through an internet site, sent a snail mail letter, and now, almost a year later, the matter is finally being investigated. I'm omitting details only out of consideration for that executive, who phoned me immediately and was super-courteous and concerned.

Meanwhile, here are a few ways of making air travel less painful.

(1) If the plane isn't full, try to get not only next to an empty seat but, even more important BEHIND an empty seat! Some people just won't give up trying to mash their seat backs into you, even if it means crushing your knees in the process.

(2) If you MUST check your bag, do this. Take a strip of thick paper or poster board - the stuff they make manila folders out of works for me. Cut a wide strip of it. On that strip, print, preferably with a fresh Sharpie or similar, print, in large characters, your name, home address and phone, destination address and phone, e mail, and the words "This luggage is supposed to be traveling on..." and then list each flight for that part of the trip, using the exact airline names and flight numbers (both, if it's a code-share), the departure and arrival times, and the 3 letter codes for each airport (easily available on line or from the airline).

Cover the whole thing with string transparent packaging tape, put it through the bag's handle and then tape the ends together firmly with more packaging tape.

Make a similar flat info sheet for inside the bag. When you reach your destination, take them off, destroy them, and make new ones for the next flight(s)

(3) When you call an airline and some semi-comprehensible Indian answers, say you need to speak to a supervisor in the United States!

[GregW]

Will a passenger bill of rights make a difference? An interesting test case would be Europe, which passed a regulation back in 2004 detailing what compensation airlines owed for overbooking, denied boarding, cancellations and delays. EU Regulation 264/2004 covers all of this.

I don't know, but perhaps someone can tell us - has the EU regulations related to this made a difference in overbooking or on-time performance?

Greg

[soliteyah]

Hmmm, that's an interesting question, Greg. Does the E.U. have a site with all those sorts of statistics that's similar to our DOT? I will have to google...

[soliteyah]

At last, a possible answer to our question about the E.U.! Judging by this article, folks in the E.U. have nearly as many complaints as we do. It appears that although the E.U. does have regulations about customer service for air travelers, those regulations aren't actually enforced very well.

Seems like we could be in for the same thing here in the States even if a passenger bill of rights does pass...sigh...

[RichardNika]

Businesses of any kind will cut corners and get away with whatever they can to make a profit and stay in business. They'll respond to two things: customer dissatisfaction and regulation. Unfortunately, the former doesn't always work either. The prime example of that is the late and unlamented Eastern Airlines, the most widely hated airline in the history of American commercial aviation (I could write a book about my own problems with them)

[GregW]

Here's another article on the EU regulations, and how they may not be working. BBC Watchdog

Looks like government regulations may not be the answer.

[soliteyah]

Thanks for the article, Greg. It sounds like your rights could maybe, possibly be honored in the E.U., but only if you scratch and claw for every cent you're owed and every tiny last bit of customer service. Which of course means that it's the same there as it is here.

So frustrating!

[BradleyDalton]

Having said that, I will add this: to incarcerate unwilling passengers on a hot, stinking,food-less, drink-less, bathroom-facility-less non-moving aircraft for hour after hour when the terminal is only a few hundred feet away is INHUMAN!! No one can tell me that there was no way to get the people out of that plane! Whatever happened to mobile stairways? ladders? Emergency chutes? Calling the fire department? Has anyone ever heard of the term "false imprisonment"?

[RichardNika]

Has anyone ever heard of SUING for false imprisonment?

If everyone victimized in this way would take the airline to small claims court,k things would change quickly. Yes, the case(s) might be lost, but it would cost the airline loss of employee time (ah, the power of the subpoena!) and legal fees.

[devilsrule2004]

thats a good article, i liked it

[JimmyRay]

I think it is great that the airlines face the potential of fines for keeping passengers on the tarmac but I think our leaders have missed the point in their legislation.

Why aren't the passengers the beneficiary of the fines? I'm the one that missed birthday parties for my kids, I'm the one that lost valuable time out of my business trip or vacation. Not the government.

For me personally, if I knew that for each hour I was sitting on the tarmac that it meant $XXXX.00 of money in my pocket I would be a little more tolerant of the entire episode.

[RichardNika]

If you lost business time then you can go to small claims court and claim actual money damages for the value of the time and/or transaction(s) you lost. Trust me, 9 times out of 10 the airline (or any other big business) would rather settle then have to send a lawyer and/or representative to court for half a day!

[nearly the bionic woman]

Yes, passengers have rights. Please read whole thing. I can be a little harsh but also give good info. Thanks!

So do the flight crew but some people do not seem to care about that. I am sorry if your flight was canceled. Do you have any idea what that does to us and our schedule?? My flight to JFK was canceled today and I am stuck in Kansas City until 5am. I have no appropriate clothes to go out in the cold rainy weather to get food that the hotel does not offer and I had plans in the city that I was supposed to be in tomorrow.

I am sorry if your flight was delayed. I spent 7 hours in the airport Tuesday waiting for the plane to take passengers to Houston. We were 5 minutes from legally timing out, which would have left the passengers stranded in NY and I was exhausted. The captain physically got out of the plane and fussed at the ground crew to move faster. I got 5 hours of sleep before I had to do it all over again. So, not all of us are monsters.

I am sorry if YOUR bag out of thousands got lost. My bag went to Hawaii once. I was in New Mexico. Stop bringing so much stuff and there would be less chance of losing it. <-----That is directed at the body bags and those that who bring the kitchen sink. TIP: bring a change of clothes (wrinkle free is best), your meds and a jewelery in a reasonably sized carry on. *read:not a huge roller*

If there are horrible thunderstorms going on, don't assume that "the airline" caused it or wants to be sitting on the tarmac wasting fuel. We are tired too and do not get to sit there reading or sleeping. I understand more than you think because I cannot sit that long and get bored too however, we really don't want to sit there either, I promise you. Let your flight attendant know if you want to return to the gate and try later. If there are enough requests and you are not a complete jerk about it, we will listen. TIP: Have alternate flights written down just in case. We do not have computers on board and have no way of knowing if there is a later flight. This way if something happens to your flight then you are better informed although this doesn't mean that there are seats on it. At least if there is guaranteed to be a lengthy delay due to AIRPORT operations, we may be able to get you on it. THIS IS NOT A GUARANTEE< ONLY A SUGGESTION.

Do I think that the 3hour rule that actually goes into effect on the 29th of April, not the 1st, will correct the problems? Not necessarily.

If you are in a place like JFK, where there is more than one airline operating, only one runway is open due to repairs and weather is not always the best, there is a greater chance that the flights will be highly delayed. Everyone is so quick to blame the airlines but have you checked the weather around the world lately? The volcano is Iceland hasn't erupted since 1821! Who knew?? You think that the passengers are being disrupted? Do you have any idea how much money the airlines have lost due to this?? Do you have some idea how they could have prepared for something that hasn't happened in about 189 years?

The reason that we leave the gate and get in line to take off even though we know that there are delays is that at least there's a chance that we will get to take off at all. If we go back to the gate, it's like hanging up and calling back. You go to the bottom of the list if you get to take off at all! Would I want to sit there for more than three hours? hell no! I don't want to sit there any longer than it takes to say the announcements. I have personally done 3.5hrs before I made an announcement asking if the passengers wanted to return to the gate (and try the NEXT DAY). The majority did, so we did. Notice, I said the next day. Does this mean that they got on the flights right away. Who knows? There were other people confirmed on the next day and Yes, I did make sure that they knew that. There could be a chance that at the 3 hour mark, we are now number 4 in line but guess what, YOU WILL NEVER KNOW IT. The airlines are not going to risk being fined $27k a person.

I really do hope that some good changes are made because I DON'T want to sit there either! Always expect the unexpected.

[nearly the bionic woman]

Originally Posted by RichardNika

If you lost business time then you can go to small claims court and claim actual money damages for the value of the time and/or transaction(s) you lost. Trust me, 9 times out of 10 the airline (or any other big business) would rather settle then have to send a lawyer and/or representative to court for half a day!

Are you kidding me? One of those are you? I understand your issues however, under what circumstances do you think that it's fair to sue for your lost time? I ask because I have my own issues with my own airline (I have been lied to by a couple of gate agents and not gotten on a flight) but I cannot be angry with them if I miss something because of weather or an unsafe issue. I have had people yell at me because they wanted to get going even though there was a problem with the aircraft. I told that woman that she may not care about her life but I cared about mine and the 60 people on the plane!

So, what is it? What circumstances warrant a lawsuit?

[RichardNika]

OK, let's start with "what circumstances warrant a lawsuit?" Yep, I am "one of those." Here are a couple of true stories.

(1) June, 1983. I was on the last leg of a month-long trip to Europe/Asia/Australia, preparing to catch my Air Florida (long since gone to that great airline graveyard-in-the-sky) nonstop from London's Heathrow to my home in Miami. I had bought the advance-purchase $630 MIA-LHR roundtrip several months before, and they had my contact info. When I went to check in at LHR, I was told, to my astonishment, that my return flight no longer existed. The airline rep was a very snotty young woman. She said they would reissue the ticket for a flight the next day, did so, and handed me back the reissued ticket. I then asked about meal and hotel vouchers, inasmuch as this was obviously the fault of the airline. She snapped at me that had done me a favor by reissuing me the ticket, but now that I was being so demanding, forget about it - and -again to my astonishment - snatched back the reissued ticket. I demanded to speak to her boss, an only slightly less snotty young man. I told him that unless they took care of me and got me home, I would sue the airline. I also told him I would have quite a story for the airline's owner, whom I named, and who was a member of our synagogue (true!) At that point, he turned from being outright snotty to being patronizing, and said oh well, because he was in a good mood, and "because it's Saturday," he'd give me back my ticket and an airport hotel and meal vouchers, which he did. I flew home the next day, sitting across from a top aide to then-vice-president George H.W. Bush (he was carrying his official labeled briefcase). When I got back, having missed a day's work, I did indeed take Air Florida to small claims, and in my complaint, I made it very clear that my main reason for doing so was because of how I was treated at LHW - especially referring to the young snotty woman. I got a modest settlement. But my real goal was to get her fired. I hope I succeeded.

(2) January, 2008. O'Hare Airport, Chicago. I was waiting for a United nonstop to Miami. There were five gates close together, each awaiting a supposedly soon-to-depart flight, and not one customer service or gate agent anywhere. None of the flights had arrived, and no one was giving out information. The flight crews, including a few pilots, were getting just as upset as the passengers. I finally spotted a United employee - no uniform, but he had the badge. I tried to get some info from him and was brusquely dismissed. Perhaps 10 minutes later, I spotted him again. This time, he snapped at me "I'm not going to talk to you!" and walked away.

But he did talk to me again. A few minutes later, I was engaged in a conversation with several passengers and flight attendants, and I was saying how upset I was with the way in which United was handling the situation and with this one agent. No, I was not yelling, cursing or making threats. Suddenly, there he was again, on the scene, angrily ordering me to stop making trouble and stop "stirring the pot," a phrase he used several times. I told him that we had free speech in this country; his response was "only if I sat so!" He then threatened to have me arrested. I indicated what I thought of his threat, and demanded his name. "Mister Brown will do!" he said, and walked away.

The next day, I wrote a very detailed account of what had happened (including what this guy looked like, exact times, etc) and sent it to the airline. No, I did not file a lawsuit. For an entire year, I pursued the matter, writing to United administrators, board members, etc. I didn't want money, or passes, or even upgrades - I wanted an apology and I wanted this guy dealt with. One evening,I was watching ABC Nightly News, and they had a segment about how O'Hare was snowed in by a blizzard, and then began a short interview with United's director of flight operations at O'Hare. I quickly dived for a pen, wrote down her name, got on the internet, got her home address, and sent my original complaint and a followup to her at home. She called me two days later and assured me it would be dealt with. A week later, her top aide called me. She said she couldn't give me precise details of what had happened because of privacy policies, but in response to my questions, she did say that yes, "Mister Brown" had been a fake name, yes, thanks to my detailed account they had identified the employee, and yes, he did remember me and the incident (I wanted to know that!)

I told her, truthfully, that if in fact I had been arrested, UAL Inc. would have faced a huge lawsuit from me for false arrest. Think I would have been justified?

I also won a small claims settlement from the SNCF (French National Railroads) I was robbed of everything I had when roaming thieves entered my compartment while I was asleep in the middle of the night and sprayed me with sleepy-gas. That was in 1982. About 15 years later, I read in the NY Times that this was still happening on SNCF overnight trains.


Most airline customers, including me, are well aware that airlines can't control the weather. But the airlines DO have a responsibility to keep passengers informed. As far as confining passengers on board against their will for hours at a time, with no food, water or usable bathroom facilities, there is no excuse for that. None. Thankfully, that has never happened to me. If it ever does, you better believe I will sue! By the way, one of my modern day heroes is Kate Hanni. It happened to her, and she started a nationwide coalition against the practice, and has lobbied and gotten a federal law passed. I love you, Kate!

My bags never get lost because I never check bags. If I can't carry it and will need it, I ship it. No, I am not one of those characters who cram oversized bags, crates, kitchen sinks, etc. into the overhead bin. I carry a medium sized bag. Several years ago, my wife talked me into once again checking my bag. So I did. It was misplaced, though I did get it back. Someone had stuck it in a back room. She talked me into doing it on the following trip. You know, the theory that lightning doesn't strike in the same place twice? Well, it did. I got my bag back the next day, and that was the permanent end of my checking baggage.

No, I do not think that airline personnel are monsters. Yes, I have had a few unpleasant encounters over lo these many years (don't ask how many). But for the most part, I've been treated with exemplary courtesy.

Um - I really don't think ANYONE blames the airlines for the Iceland volcano! Come on! Recalling how a British Airways 747 took a 2 mile dive years ago because of volcanic ash before being able to restart the engines, I would be just fine waiting it out under such circumstances.

I have found that some airline employees tend to get very defensive when criticisms are made. Hello! You folks chose these jobs, and you're being paid to deal with people under sometimes difficult circumstances. Whenever I hear excuses being made for rude employees, I think back to the week during which my wife and I were waiting to find out whether or not our toddler's huge tumor was malignant (it was not) During that week, I was at my job in a senior center, dealing with occasionally difficult people. Did I take out my anxiety - agony, even - on them? No, I did not. Grin and bear it, folks! At least you're working right now, and you still get to fly for free, not to mention your spouses, parents and kids. I sure would love to be able to take my family to Paris for a long weekend!

[nearly the bionic woman]

Well RichardNika, I have to admit that my mouth was dropped the entire time I was reading your response. That's not what I had in mind and completely understand and agree with your position. No, I am not backing out of my opinion however, I was not on the same track.

I have had a woman say that we were holding her hostage after taxing for 15minutes and threaten me. I have had a passenger tell me that he was going to miss his daughters wedding because we were running 5 minutes late (for a mechanical that was no ones fault). I also had a woman and her grown kids miss another one of her son's wedding because they too left day of and there was really bad weather but she/they were so kind and understanding unlike most.

When I hear the word sue, I kind of cringe. I want to sue the bank because my husbands account that he never used somehow became $3 in the negative and they are now threatening lawsuit for over $600! On the other hand, I ran in to a pole at the grocery store and you should have seen them come running! I was the idiot for not paying attention so I would never think of blaming them.

I apologize for thinking you meant sue because you didn't have your bag for a day or you missed a meeting because you booked the flight with barely a chance to make it in the first place. You never know these days and some people are just looking for a quick free buck.

Good luck in future travels!

[nearly the bionic woman]

Just for the record: The days that flying for free was a real possibility are long gone! Sure, we get to fly for free. If we can get on a flight. And then, can we get back? Also, we do not make enough money to take a long weekend to Paris just because we feel like it. At least not those of us with families. I am however very thankful that I have my job and I love it.

BTW, sorry to hear about your son. You didn't say if he was alright or not but I hope so. I have had 5 surgeries in just the last 4 years including a kidney transplant so I understand at least a little.

Take care.

Christina

[RichardNika]

Hi Christina, and thank you...

I don't have a son, but I do have three daughters. The daughter who had the big tumor that turned out to be benign is now 36, married, living in southern California, married with a wonderful 2 year old son, and doing very well as a casting producer/director of reality shows (the most recent being "Policewomen of Maricopa County" on TLC; she's also had lots of stuff on CBS)

The only things I've ever blamed airline personnel for have been (1) not giving out information, and (2) being rude.

When I talk about the good side (which is by far most of it) of airline personnel, I like to refer to what happened when my first grandson was born. We live in Miami Beach, and our daughter was and is in Atlanta. She called shortly after 6:00 PM and said labor had begin - 3 days early. My wife had already changed her Delta reservation from 3 days ahead to 1 day ahead, and the phone rep had waived the change fee. But that wasn't enough.

I called Delta and they said the last flight to ATL was at 8:00 PM and there was a wait list of over 70 people. She said, well, that's that. I said, no it isn't. Take your already-packed bag and we're going to MIA. She said, how are we going to do this? I said, begging and pleading.

We pulled into the expensive close-by short-term parking (only time we've ever done that), ran inside, and began the "B & P." The station manager came out, heard our story, believed us, and jumped her over the entire wait list - with no change fee. Five hours after our daughter called, she was thrilled beyond belief when her mom walked into the hospital room, in the nick of time.

My wife felt badly about having been jumped over a woman who was on the wait list with her two children. I said, I understand. But she could wait, and you couldn't.

Be well.

Richard (my real first name) Nika (the name of my now-gone beloved Rottweiler)